And no, I did not. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. I just want an equal seat at the table. We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. which many people hold as dear as religion and political beliefs. Thinks youre cute. Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. It turns out it wasnt that easy. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. I know the WCF does not say it. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. But something has changed in the last number of years. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. (I mean, Star Trek?). And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. I would love to sit down with you over coffee and discuss reformed theology, because it sounds like we could do it without emotion and angst, and I think I could learn a lot. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!. That if we are only a little totally depraved we might only get a little condemned by God, and not die? Lydia's Corner:Ezra 3:1-4:231 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25, Thank you so much for this posting. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. Charles . This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. Good point. No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. Anywaythats fine. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. And those who have been left behind when theyve fallen in between, On the altar of the simple road is the blood of the messy gray Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. @ JeffB: Which is fine! Purity of Ideology, Dee. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. Another thank you, this time for writing tenet instead of tenant. Anyway, if this means that God made you say the words, and made you think the thoughts that led to them, this is not what Calvin believed, though I think Hyper-Calvinists believe this. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. Baptist commentaries are the work of scholars and pastors who have served and ministered within the Baptist branch of the Christian faith. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? For my part, I DO understand why people look at Calvinism and reject it. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? As Ive said on older threads, back when I was considering becoming a Calvinist and began lurking at their forums and perusing their sites, and I began e mailing them asking them if they could explain Calvinism for me and clear up some confusion I had, this happened a lot. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. Addressing what many evangelical Christians are concerned about todayso-called "new Calvinism," a movement embraced by a generation labeled as "young, restless, Reformed" Against Calvinism is the only book of its kind to offer objections from a non-Calvinist perspective to the current wave of Calvinism among Christian youth. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. @ Hester: Not in the sense that Calvinists view PSA, I think. It is an incontrovertible fact that some parts of Calvinism have been used to hurt people. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. . It was you! Change). Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. Our sinful human nature craves it. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. 1550-1616), who was not. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. Agree. . I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. How to Resign from a Church Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. Everything just fell apart. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org And it seems the Neo-Cals operate the opposite way: they view everyone else from a Calvinist lens and themselves through an Arminian one. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all have doctrines which are neither, and Anglicans typically hold doctrines similar to one of those three, rejecting the reformed framework which is central to both Arminianism and Calvinism. But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. But the rest of the bad stuff? I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy.
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